Just some random thoughts today

According to CNN, Mikhail Gorbachev claims that Georgia started the war when they attacked Tskhinvali and Russia responded by defending it’s country.

Gorbachev told CNN’s Larry King that Russia moved additional forces into South Ossetia in response to “devastation” in the South Ossetia city of Tskhinvali.

Is this a precursor to a larger scale war with US forces moving a massive armada to the Persian Gulf?

Comments on: "Mikhail Gorbachev Claims Georgia Started War" (18)

  1. LARRY, YOU ARE THE MAN!! And a very brave one!

    You dared to let a single Russian voice on any “Western” media (official/mainstream TV, radio, press, and their Internet outlets) for the FIRST time in these 11 days of conflict!!!

    Every day, every hour that we were hearing/watching/reading about it from/on/in the media, esp. CNN, – it was more and more EMBARASSINGLY ONE-SIDED. All news, comments or accusations were coming only from either official Georgian side (including its clearly/visibly disturbed and inadequate president Saakashvili), or pro-Western = anti-Russian = pro-Georgian officials, “experts”, and newsmen from US and Europe.

    Your viewers know by heart that every story (esp. conflict) has two sides. So when 3 days into Russian “Response” (Pres. Bush) we were fed with exclusively one side of the story, it became clear to our guts – something’s wrong with our side (of the story AND conflict). Any fool realized – such a bias was not because of chance, neglect or ignorance. Some sort of effort was behind.

    Therefore, I applaud you for your brave albeit belated (6th day into response, 2nd day into truce already), breakthrough! I’m sure it was not easy to get it permitted by your network.

    I must also commend your thoughtful choice of the source to represent the other side! A well-known, -respected, and -achieved Peace Nobelist, who is blamed in Russia for dismantling Soviet Union. Mr. Gorbachev is independent of, somewhat in opposition to, and often critical toward current “regime” in Russia. Thus his words, facts and analysis were very impressive and trustful. It was important that you did not call one of those eager Russians paid for by the Heritage Foundation. Nor did you call a Russian official. Although I’m thinking sometimes: with Georgian President all over our free media 24/7, would not it be prudent to let the Russian President to appear once?

    It seemed to me that your decision to give the last word to Saakashvili was very unfair. But maybe you were smart here too: what and how Saakashvili spoke, smeared Gorbachev, contradicted himself today or his previous strange statements, looked ridiculous on the background of European Union flag (not only Georgia is NOT a member and EU said he may not legally do this, Georgia is in ASIA) – all went in Gorbachev’s favor.

    There was one strange thing, though. It was funny, if not sharply disturbing, when you asked Saakashvili whether Gorbachev was right that Georgia had started it. Really, are you still in doubt? It’s common knowledge by now. If you indeed are still searching for the core truth here, let me suggest you a brief and definitive analysis below.

    As a scientist, for such an analysis I choose few simple numerical facts from an undisputable source. The source you can surely trust (at least on this one) – the President of the US George W. Bush. His statements made in Beijing August 9 and 10, and later repeated in White House, were surely prepared with the help of State Dept and CIA, in turn led by trusted and knowledgeable Kremlinologists. The facts are:
    1. Russia entered the conflict on August 8, 2008 (remember? It happened on Olympiad opening date of 08.08.08).
    2. Russia’s activity was called “disproportionate RESPONSE”.
    3. Sides were asked to return to the “status quo of August 6” in South Ossetia.

    That’s it. Just three verifiable irrefutable numerical facts. They must have been well researched for the historical statement. Analysis simply follows the facts:

    On August 8, Russia RESPONDED. Thus by definition Russia did not start it.
    It responded to something done by somebody sometime earlier. Can we further determine these “somes”? Yes:

    The response by Russia was defined as military and disproportionate. It was not defined as wrong or unprovoked. Therefore, the “something” was a military attack.
    Since the opposing side mentioned was Georgia, the “somebody” was Georgia, more specifically its military.
    Since the President demanded the status quo of August 6, the “sometime” must be on or before the August 6.

    Now we can summarize our analysis:
    It turns out that ON OR BEFORE August 6, 2008, armed forces of republic of Georgia STARTED a military ATTACK on targets/people in South Ossetia. No doubt it was executed upon orders of Georgian Commander in Chief Saakashvili, may be approved in advance by their parliament. AFTER this, two days and nights later, Russia RESPONDED with its armed forces on orders by its Commander in Chief President Medvedev.

    You or Mr. Saakashvili are invited to falsify/refute the analysis by providing an alternative one. Until my analysis is falsified in the same strict manner, it stands as the only true representation of what happened in the beginning of the South Ossetia conflict this August. We must also conclude, that Georgia and personally Saakashvili are wrong and guilty in starting a war without UN sanctions, which constitutes the heaviest crime against humanity.

    Few questions remain. What were the Georgia’s targets in Ossetia? Military or civilian? What was the extent of the Georgian assault? How disproportionate was Russian response (e.g., too big or too small?)?

    Three more comments and I’ll be done. Saakashvili waved some stained two pages calling them HRW report confirming the damage in Gori and refuting Russian allegations in South Ossetia and Ts’hinval. What he failed to tell you was that HRW has not visited Ts’hinval yet.

    He told you Russia violates the signed truce agreement. But according to FOX and CNN, the 5th article of the agreement allows Russia to patrol and demilitarize the adjacent areas (i.e., to dismantle Georgian army there), AND SAAKASHVILI HAD SIGNED THE AGREEMENT, on TV.

    Clearly, any documented recording of military activity in the area BEFORE August 8 would exhibit the size/extent of GEORGIA’s assault there (e.g., US and Russian satellites, radars, and video). Toward this end, I state the following: The skirmishes there had actually started on August 3 (thus 11 days of conflict) with Georgian sniper fire and mortars. So, I was following the news from there very closely since then. On August 6, Georgia started heavy artillery shelling of Ts’hinval, and Georgian TV was showing it. That’s when Georgian peacekeepers were reportedly shooting Russian ones and running home. On the night of August 7, GEORGIAN TV broadcasted a shocking footage: in darkness dozens of bright rockets flying across the screen. It was accompanied by proud comments: President Saakashvili had ordered the restoration of Constitutional order in South Ossetia and we are going ahead! (I got the video from both Georgian and Russian Internet TV streams like Russia Today and Rustavi-2, both with English). The Katyusha type rockets were fired from Russian-made “Grad” system. Please ask your stuff to find out about it (it is indiscriminate weapon for mass destruction of personnel on large area). Please ask your stuff to find the footage in archives – you won’t need to ask Saakashvili who started what, and he won’t lie into your face. I was shaken to my gut by the images! To use Grad rockets at night on a sleeping city is not just barbaric and criminal, it’s pure Nazi evil! How could we ever support or defend such a … degenerate?

    Next day Russian troops moved in, shelling of Ts’hinval stopped, Georgian troops started running, and only then the world had heard of South Ossetia FROM THE MOUTH OF SAAKASHVILI.

    BTW, why the free media have not yet invited a single South Ossetian to talk? I heard they call these events The Third Genocide. I would like to hear why. Anyway, without a word from a single Ossetian man, woman or child, all the reporting seems fake, inhumane, and Soviet Union-like.

    Sincerely,
    EAK

  2. Being Russian and not being a fan of Mr.Gorbachev, I must acknowledge, that all he said about war in South Ossetia is true!Americans say, Russia is not democratic, but it seems to me, USA have also problems , at least US press seems to be not as free as one could think! CNN proves it. So many lies, being told over past week ! Anyway,thanks to Mr. Larry King for giving a fllour to Mr. Gorbacchev and not interrupting him ( like Mr.Clancy did, when talking yesterday with Russian Foreign Ministry official.) Another point: I tnink, American tax-payers have a right to know how Saakaschwilii used the money they paid!

  3. RICHARD JAGIELSKI said:

    I SUPPOSE THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE WELL IMFORMED AS TO WHAT THEIR GOVENRMENT IS UP TO, AS THEIR TOTALLY FREE PRESS WOULD NOT LIE TO THEM.

    LETS FACE IT, THIS PLAYBOOK HAS BEEN USED BEFORE, REMEMBER SERBIA? THEY WERE ONLY PROTECTING THEIR SERBIAN MINORITIES IN FIRST, CROATIA, THEN BOSNIA, THEN KOSOVO, THEN MONTENAGRO. THE PLAYBOOK THEY USED CAME FROM PUTIN AND THE KGB, SO WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW??????

    DON,T BE IDIOTS, YOU DON’T THAT MANY TROOPS, AND THAT MUCH EQUIPMENT, THAT FAST AND THAT FAR WITHOUT A LOT OF PLANNING AND A LOT OF PREPARATION.

  4. Richard, don’t you know that Russia has predicted an escalation of the conflict since April 2008? It is obvious that Russia was aware of possibility that Georgia with such an impulsive Saakashvili will try to perform an attack on South Ossetians and Abkhazians. With Georgian army prepared and supplied by USA and Israel, such an attack may have caused terrible desctructions and kills, which in fact is what we see now in South Ossetia. More that 1600 civilians killed by Georgian artillery, tanks and soldiers. Just take a look: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29507379@N06
    That’s why Russian forces were dislocated in North Ossetia (subject of Russian Federation), that’s why Russian army was just in time to stop Georgians of complete elimination of Ossetians.

    There is an informational war ongoing, with your Mass Media showing only Gerogian side, with all these false ‘attacks’ by Russian army, etc. I’m sorry to see how so called ‘democracy’ works in U.S.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

    I just hope that not all of Americans take on trust everything that TV shows them.

  5. Michael Petek said:

    Gorbachev’s got a nerve! When in 1990 South Ossetia declared separation from the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic within the constitutional framework of the USSR it was Gorbachev who signed off the decree declaring it illegal.

  6. To Richard: I live in Germany and have an opportunity to get information from different sources.The fact is Western Mass Media kept silence when S-Ossetia was shelled by georgians from Grad systems and run down with tanks; causing death and destruction.But when Russians came to help, the West starts to shout about russian aggression! It is very easy -ask ossetians – who killed and who rescued! Unfortunately, the answer would not suit US leaders: too much money was invested in Georgian project . That is why there is so much of maniac Saakashwili on CNN, and NOONE from another part, namely South Ossetia!

  7. Mr. G, you have no credibility. None whatsoever. Riddle me this? How could Russia put 20,000+ troops inlcuding troops , plaines, ships and tanks together in one day? It doesn’t pass the red face test and you know it. This was planned from the beginning. And if it’s about South Ossetia. What are they doing taking the northwest part of Georgia? Hypocricy belongs on your face. Also, don’t even try to equate this with Saddam Insane except to say that Putin’s action parallels Saddam’s when he invaded Kuwait. Last time I checked Putin signed ALL the many UN resolutions against Saddam, including the use of force. And the Russians then moved the WMDs to Syria. It’s clear Russia is not our friend.

  8. “Gorbachev Claims Georgia Started War”

    If this is true, and I respect Gorbachev’s opinion, then the US Republican administration started the war. This is consistent with their past behavior, and it is undoubtedly a bid to return a Republican to office, if the US still refuses to hold Republicans accountable.

  9. The very thing that the mass media shows the Georgian and US points of view ONLY – are in fact THE RED FLAG.
    That’s a “D” to the scenarists of this show as well as to actors.

  10. Now, this is not about discussing whether Russia is a friend of US. This conflict was one-sidedly presented by the western mass media, and that is a fact. That alone would raise many questions, if I lived in the west, the most important one being: “who benefits from this?”. I am a Russian citizen, I do live in Russia (Moscow), but I’ve been closely watching how the conflict was interpreted (or should I say, misinterpreted) by the western tv and press, Soviet-Union like, exactly!

    (by the way, to all the KGB-conspiracy-PutinNewFuhrer adepts, likely the most oppositional radio-station in Russia “Echo Moskvy” which has been waiving its anti-Kremlin flag since Eltsin came to power, invited ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE for interviews and comments, from Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov to Georgian people being interviewed on telephone. From the very first day of the conflict. This only goes to say that if there are issues of propaganda and media manipulation, they are not in Russia this time)

    It looks like all the western leaders, and, surprisingly, mass media, swiftly returned to the good-old “bad Russia” accusations. Not wanting to give an opportunity to speak to anyone else other than Saakashvili? Now, that’s what I would call disproportionate. I am not saying that Russia is a saint. But what’s sad for me is the fact that the west chooses to treat Russia as the bad guy a priori. If the US administration really wanted to start resolving this situation, they chose the worst approach – throwing accusations and threats. You can’t have a serious business without respect. But the American media and politics only seem to compete these days in the game of “Who hates Russia most?”. Once again, I am not asking anyone to love Russia. I am only saying that this country is a rightful participant of an international diplomatic scene. And it must be treated accordingly. Can an American person try and explain to me the reasons of Bush’s administration? Because I genuinely can’t understand what is happening with the west now? Who benefits from presenting Russia as the world’s biggest scarecrow?

  11. Once again, I am not asking anyone to love Russia. I am only saying that this country is a rightful participant of an international diplomatic scene. And it must be treated accordingly. Can an American person try and explain to me the reasons of Bush’s administration?
    >>>>the Bush adm. hasn’t threatened anyone in this confrontation. It sees a bear and calls it a bear. If the Russians want to be part of the international community they need to follow the rules. So far what they have said (Georgia has been punished enough) is not what they are doing as their military moves deeper and deeper into another sovereign nations terrority. Furthermore, Russian words are disingenuous, and actions questionable. They are facing another Kosovo and they know it. This has been brewing since the 1990s. The Russian sent in “peacekeepers”. It is a failed policy when you have to send in a pre meditated army to do what their own policy has failed to do. They tried to integrate this two regions by giving them passports and Russian citizen. That is disingenuous. You don’t go into another country and start giving it’s citizens papers to your country. That is what the WESTERN PRESS has ignored. You still haven’t answered the fact that they sent in 20,000+ troops, planes, tanks, ships, etc. on short notice. It’s clearly a Russian provoked situation, even if the Georgians supposedly fired first. They could easily have resovled this diplomaticly. But the Russians threw out the last signed INTERNATIONAL agreement addressing these two runaway provinces. The Russians have no one to blame but themselves. They should be held fully accountable before the court of crimes against humanity. As well, any Georgians should be also.
    Furthermore , riddle me this why do all the Eastern European and ex-Soviet nations not dominated by the Russians all hate the Russians including the Poles, the czechs, the Ukrainians, the Armenians, the Moldovians, the Bulgarians, the Latkians, Finland, Baltic nations, Albanians, Slovinians…I could go on and on. The Russians bit off more than they can chew on this one. They should have gone for diplomatic solution instead they revert to Stone Age mentality.
    Plus the Russians have been offered sanctuary of a contigous European Military shield against renegade nuke bearing nations. They scoff at it and illogically turn it into some paranoid scheme against themselves. Is there any more saying that this reveals the KGB mentality still running Russia?

    Your response has been completely decimated. Try again, and this time use some common sense and logical historical prespective.

  12. But I am using common sense and logical historical prespective. And it’s not about decimating someone’s response.
    The problem is different. It’s in the attitude that you demonstrate from the start. I am not an expert in politics or military activities, so I just can not answer some of your questions competently. But you are really not asking them to hear an answer, are you? All you’re doing sums up to telling me that same old cold-war story. Well, to my knowledge, it’s obsolete.
    Unfortunately, unless you shake this anti-Russian attitude that just pours from every word of your writing, there can be no constructive dialogue.
    You are not willing to see anything other than the “bear”. As for the Stone Age and “cave-dwelling” mentality, I hear it often from people like you, who are most comfortable with their illusory image of Russia (naturally, the sinless US rule). And I know that anything I say will not convince you at all or make you change your mind about anything. Okay then, what now? Cold war? or maybe hot war better? Yeah, let’s just nuke all those f**ing Russians? It’s going to make things so much easier!

    Russia is open for diplomacy in resolving this conflict and there is enough evidence on this. It is up to the west to show how diplomatically civilized they are now. Unfortunately most of them have not been demonstrating their best so far.

    And, one more little thing. Being a big fan of traveling, I’ve been to many different countries, among which are almost all of the countries you mentioned in your “russia-haters” list. I had no hate issues in any of them.

    And last, but not least, mr. riddler, in all your rhetoric you still said nothing about the mass media role and the way it was acting in this conflict. My original post was actually about that and not who planned what in the first place.

    And please, don’t try to “decimate” my post. If you did not notice, I am not making statements of “good russia – bad america” or otherwise. I am just looking for ways out of confrontation.

  13. Sometimes a conspiracy really is a conspiracy. The timing of the Georgian attack on South Osettiais is just too much of a coincidence for me. Also the fact that McCain’s top international adviser was a paid lobbyist for Georgia would imply that there is deep levels of communication between the two parties. The fact that the schedule of both Obama and Bush had them going on vacation so that McCain can take center stage is also too coincidental. Plus the military support and training given by the US to Georgia, and the prospect than an Obama presidency would result in less support from US, leads me to believe that this conflict was provoked by Saakasvili and that the strong Russian response was a given. For Bush to make comments that bullying and intimidation are not acceptable in the 21st century is insanity.

  14. Green Alien said:

    Well, russians consider that enter a foreign country with thousands of tanks and troopers are absolutely normal international relations – just an humanitarian act. Russians consider that destroy and attack civilians and military from a foreign country on others land – for years – is normal behavior for politics. Russians consider that arming and maintain irregular forces on other countries is a daily normality. Russians consider that give passports for foreigners on another country, autonomously, unilaterally decided, unapproved by international authorities, is just good neighborhood. Russia today is governed by an authoritarian, ex KGB, that made very clear their intentions to bring soviet-era politics to the 21st century. Shame Russia. This crazy minded will fool you until you suffer. Your leader cannot look in the eyes – he is lying. Russian secret service target agents worldwide, did you notice this? Read the news. Russia do not have a single good international partner. Not a single one. Russians have the right to make a good and modern country – the entire world are waiting for this to happen.

  15. Yuri Zavorotny said:

    It is not just Gorbachev and other Russians accusing Georgia of invading South Osetia. In the first hours after the invasion has started, Georgians temeselves were declaring that their goal is to take over the rebel province:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080808/wl_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc_26

    They changed the story once Russia started to retalliate.

  16. Green Alien, just one question: have you ever been to Russia?

  17. To Mr. Logical and some,

    I may be wrote too much, and my US facts-based logic was buried there. So let me simplify:

    For any analysis I choose few simple numerical facts from an undisputable source. The source you can surely trust on this one is the President of the US George W. Bush. His statements made in Beijing August 9 and 10, and later repeated in White House, were prepared by trusted and knowledgeable Kremlinologists.

    The facts STATED BY THE USA are:
    1. Russia entered the conflict on August 8, 2008 (Olympiad opening date of 08.08.08).
    2. Russia’s activity was called “disproportionate RESPONSE”.
    3. Sides were asked to return to the “status quo of August 6″ in South Ossetia.

    That’s it. Analysis simply follows the facts:

    On August 8, Russia RESPONDED. Thus by definition Russia did not start it.
    (If the response was swift and efficient – good for them, sorry if you did not like it, but you would be an idiot to expect otherwise from a country that was attacked, suffered so much, and almost single-handedly had won the World War II. It is paranoid about being unprepared ever since. In addition, it’s not a secret that the 58 Army, which did the job, allways stays mobilized and ready in North Caucasus, especially after Chechens’ two attacks in July 1999, right after NATO bombings in Kosovo)
    So, Russia responded to something done by somebody sometime earlier.

    Since the US President demanded the status quo of August 6, the “sometime” must be on or before the August 6.

    Now we can summarize our analysis:
    ON OR BEFORE August 6, 2008, armed forces of republic of Georgia STARTED a military ATTACK on targets/people in South Ossetia. No doubt it was executed upon orders of Georgian Commander in Chief Saakashvili, may be approved in advance by their parliament and/or US. AFTER this aggression started, two days and nights later, Russia RESPONDED with its armed forces on orders by its Commander in Chief President Medvedev.

    You all or Mr. Saakashvili are invited to falsify/refute the analysis of the official US position by providing an alternative one. (Well, now even FOX News knows and aknowledges that Georgia started and Russia retaliated)

    The question remaims (only one of many) – HOW disproportionate the respons was?
    Saakashvili’s Georgia has killed 16 Russian pecekeepers and 1600 civilians (~90% legal Russian citizens, much like British in America in 1776, Africa, India, and Hong Kong, or Americans in Texas, Cuba, Lebanon, Grenada and Panama, or Belgians and French in Africa). A dosen of Ossetian villages and a city of Ts’hinval are apparently ruined totally (e.g., see on Yahoo yesterday’s photo report by AP’s M. Mentzel from there, including a picture of a ruined SYNAGOGUE – the first and only Georgian-destroyed synagogue in Georgians’ 5000 year history! I mean, Saaki really have done it!). BTW, Georgians killing Russian soldiers – also the first (or second?) in their common 800 years of history. But that’s too deep for you.

    For Russia to be PROPORTIONATE, she should have killed 1616 Georgians, ruined a city and a dosen of villages. Could she? Oh yeah! DID SHE? Apparently not.

    Saakashvili recognized 164 dead. No city or town was destroyed – see UN Komissar for Refugies’ report, he visited Tbilisi, Gory, Zugdidi and Poti. Saakashvili’s claims of carpet bombings are now documentally disproved. The claims were mass reproduced in our free media, but never reversed…

    Anyway, the only conclusion we must make is that the Russian response was DISPROPORTIONATELY SMALL. Strange but true.

    As to Russian tanks and soldiers entering Georgia and destroying its military… Well, THEY (Georgia) STARTED IT. Let me remind you that this answer/justification is at least as old as Georgian ethnos itself, and much older than Russia. Don’t start a war – the enemy may not submit and surrender (e.g., Vietnam, Afganistan and Iraq), it may kick your ass and even win. Starting a war is opening a Pandorra box. So, be prepared to lose, and take it like a man, not like a Saakashvili, who cries and whines now. Shame on him and those who STILL (after all we’ve learned) backs him – a bloody murderer and a total fool.

    This danger of starting a war is especially true when it comes to attacking Russia – just look what happened with Tatar-Mongols, Poles, Svedes, Turks, French, Germans, and Chechens… So, the best thing we can do for Georgia now is – don’t be Saakashvili fool, be Bagrationi smart.

  18. Two things are really bad to my taste.

    Up to this date, none of the free-west-democracy leaders expressed their shock, regret, apology, and solidarity to South Ossetia, a small people of just over 100 000, after what happened to them! On our scale, it’s like if America has lost 4.8 million people in 2 days! (BTW, somebody did invite some Ossetians to talk – FOX News did! Check it out:

    This ugly setup, the root of all evil there, – the division of ancient Alans into North and South Ossetias, separating them, then subordinating the small Abkhaz and Ossetian people to larger but still small Georgian republic, – all this was set up by Josef Stalin personally there in 1921, then Narkom of Nationalities. (BTW, Georgians are still proud of Stalin, and his huge mustashed statue is still standing tall in his birthplace of Gori just south of Ts’hinval, much like mustashed Saddam statue in Baghdad was.) So, by insisting that Abkhazia and S.Ossetia must remain in Georgia, West acts as the defender of Stalin’s bloody legacy!
    And opposing standard is applied to places like N. Ireland, Kosovo, Darfur, E. Timor, Taiwan, and Tibet, etc.!

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